From the wonky opening that brought you “Fuck you Star Trek fans” and “Phwooar, Princess Leia”, comes this … “Nerd culture is the product of a late capitalist conspiracy, designed to infantalize the consumer as a means of non-aggressive control.”
It has come to my attention (thank you google), that the excellent website, Io9 picked up on some controversial comments I made to the Radio Times, which can be summed up in the above headline. Now, maybe I was being a little bit trollish, I can be a bit of a Contrary Mary in interviews sometimes. When you do lots of them, you get sick of your own opinions and start espousing other people’s. Having said that, the idea of our prolonged youth is something I’ve been interested in for a very long time. It’s essentially what Spaced was about, at least in part.
One of the things that inspired Jessica and myself, all those years ago, was the unprecedented extension our generation was granted to its youth, in contrast to the previous generation, who seemed to adopt a received notion of maturity at lot sooner. The children of the 70s and 80s were the first generation, for whom it wasn’t imperative to ‘grow up’ immediately after leaving school. Why this happened is a whole other sociological discussion: a rise in the student population, progress in gender equality, the absence of world war; all these things and more contributed to this social evolution. What fascinated Jess and I was the way we utilised this time. For Tim and Daisy, not having to grow up in the way their parents did, simply meant a continuation of their childhood. For Daisy, it was the pursuit of her girlhood dreams and fantasies. For Tim, he channeled his childhood passions into his adult life, cared about them as much, invested in them, the same level of time, importance and emotion. His hobbies and interests defined who he was, rather than his professional status.
In the 18 years since we wrote Spaced, this extended adolescence has been cannily co-opted by market forces, who have identified this relatively new demographic as an incredibly lucrative wellspring of consumerist potential. Suddenly, here was an entire generation crying out for an evolved version of the things they were consuming as children. This demographic is now well and truly serviced in all facets of entertainment and the first and second childhoods have merged into a mainstream phenomenon.
Before Star Wars, the big Hollywood studios were making art movies, with morally ambiguous characters, that were thematically troubling and often dark (Travis Bickle dark, as opposed to Bruce Wayne dark)*. This was probably due in large part to the Vietnam War and the fact that a large portion of America’s young men were being forced to grow up very quickly. Images beamed back home from the conflict, were troubling and a growing protest movement forced the nation to question the action abroad. Elsewhere, feminism was still dismissed as a lunatic fringe by the patriarchal old guard, as mainstream culture actively perpetuated traditional gender roles. Star Wars was very much an antidote to the moral confusion of the war, solving the conundrum of who was good and who was evil. At the heart of the story was an ass kicking princess who must surely have empowered an entire generation of girls. It was a balm for a nation in crisis in a number of ways and such was that nation’s influence, the film became a global phenomenon.
Recent developments in popular culture were arguably predicted by the French philosopher and cultural theorist, Jean Baudrillard in his book, ‘America’, in which he talks about the infantilzation of society. Put simply, this is the idea that as a society, we are kept in a state of arrested development by dominant forces in order to keep us more pliant. We are made passionate about the things that occupied us as children as a means of drawing our attentions away from the things we really should be invested in, inequality, corruption, economic injustice etc. It makes sense that when faced with the awfulness of the world, the harsh realities that surround us, our instinct is to seek comfort, and where else were the majority of us most comfortable than our youth? A time when we were shielded from painful truths by our recreational passions, the toys we played with, the games we played, the comics we read. There was probably more discussion on Twitter about the The Force Awakens and the Batman vs Superman trailers than there was about the Nepalese earthquake or the British general election.
The ‘dumbing down’ comment came off as a huge generalisation by an A-grade asshorn. I did not mean that science fiction or fantasy are dumb, far from it. How could I say that? In the words of Han Solo, “Hey, it’s me!” In the last two weeks, I have seen two brilliant exponents of the genre. Ex Machina and Mad Max: Fury Road, both of which had my head spinning in different and wonderful ways and are both very grown up films (although Max has a youthful exuberance which is nothing’s short of joyous, thanks George Miller, 70) I’ve yet to see Tomorrowland but with Brad Bird at the helm, it cannot be anything but a hugely entertaining think piece.
I guess what I meant was, the more spectacle becomes the driving creative priority, the less thoughtful or challenging the films can become. The spectacle of Mad Max is underpinned not only multiple layers of plot and character but also by an almost lost cinematic sense of ‘how did they do that?’ The best thing art can do is make you think, make you re-evaluate the opinions you thought were yours. It’s interesting to see how a cerebral film maker like Christopher Nolan, took on Batman and made it something more adult, more challenging, chasing Frank Miller’s peerless Dark Knight into a slightly less murky world of questionable morality and violence. But even these films are ultimately driven by market forces and somebody somewhere will want to soften the edges, so that toys and lunch boxes can be sold. In that respect, Bruce Wayne’s fascistic vigilantism was never really held to account, however interesting Nolan doubtless found that idea. Did he have an abiding love of Batman or was it a means of making his kind of movie on the mainstream stage?
Fantasy in all its forms is probably the most potent of social metaphors and as such can be complex and poetic. No one could ever accuse Game of Thrones of being childish. George RR Martin clearly saw the swords and sorcery genre as a fertile means to express his musings on ambition, power and lust. Perhaps it milieu makes it more commercial though, would a straight up historical drama have lasted so long? Maybe Game of Thrones wouldn’t have been made at all ten years ago. A world without Game of Thrones?! if Baudrillard had predicted that, I probably would have dropped out of university and become a cobbler**.
The point of all this is just to get my position clear. I’m not out of the fold, my passions and preoccupations remain. Sometimes it’s good to look at the state of the union and make sure we’re getting the best we can get. On one hand it’s a wonderful thing, having what used to be fringe concerns, suddenly ruling the mainstream but at the same time, these concerns have also been monetised and marketed and the things that made them precious to us, aren’t always the primary concern (right, Star Trek TOS fans?)
Also, it’s good to ask why we like this stuff, what makes it so alluring, so discussed, so sacred. Do we channel our passion and indignation into ephemera, rather than reality? Not just science fiction and fantasy but gossip and talent shows and nostalgia and people’s arses. Is it right? Is it dangerous? Something to discuss over a game of 3D chess, perhaps.
Speaking of which I better climb aboard the old hypocropter and fly back to writing Star Trek Beyond.
In short:
- I love Science Fiction and fantasy and do not think it’s all childish.
- I do not think it is all generated by dominant forces as a direct means of control…much.
- I am still a nerd and proud.
Love and rockets,
Simon
p.s. Timothy Dalton and Pierce Brosnan are also Stormtroopers in The Force Awakens.
*Those type of films are made today but not by big studios. Before Star Wars, SciFi and Fantasy were seen as B movie fodder, that the big studios were wary of. Alan Ladd Jnr really doesn’t get the credit he deserves for backing George Lucas.
**No disrespect to cobblers, I merely intended to allude to a profession that would not fill my days with fantasy. Not that cobblers can’t enjoy fantasy, they can. After all, some of them are magic elves who only come out at night to save a poor husband and wife from destitution. Surely a metaphor for the invisible underclass, enabling social mobility among the executive echelons of the pre war working class.
Simon Pegg
Actor/writer - Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, Paul, World's End. Also, secret agent, starship engineer and diesel weasel. GSOH. Must love dogs.
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This entire misadventure reminded me of something Charlie Brooker said on one of his “Wipe” shows: “Calling Batman ‘the Dark Knight’ is like calling Papa Smurf ‘the Blue Patriarch’: you’re not fooling anyone.”
Which is to say, I agree with all the above.
if you analytically look at the star wars universe,the empire is a great representation of the USA today in my opinion. yes including the prequels (i hate them too)however the universe itself the empire was created through endless war, massive debt, and the government spying, turning neighbor against neighbor. also the first true rebels were labeled terrorists.
EXCELLLENT analysis, and kudos for your hatred of the US, it is really clever. It is a good thing we have so many other countries around the world that can claim a clean conscience over the past few hundred years like the UK can… um, I mean y’know, other European countries.. that weren’t.. involved in genocide or subjugation or anything ever.. I mean, y’know what I mean? But yeah, that Star Wars thing for sure, and maybe C3PO could be stoned to death for being a homosexual and Princess Leia could have acid thrown in her face for not minding her place.. It really DOES work..
Hatred of the U.S. ?? Where perchance did you find that little nugget in that post? You might need to get out a little more often, maybe meet some people. Take a chance, perhaps a girl will help you to open up, and not be so fearful. Give you a more open and rounded world view..? Trust me, it will help. Some time from now, we’ll look back on all this and be able to laugh about it, even you. Maybe you’ll be the first to crack the joke. I look forwards to it. In that other dimension, you already have!
By the way, have you ever heard of someone called Bill Hicks? Look him up, George Carlin won’t hurt you either.
Good luck, Mr H
Mr. H, if you’re going to write some nonsense you should at least stand by that nonsense when you’re called on. Poor form to pretend you didn’t mean what you meant.
to keep short as one of the few nonsheep i’m not sure how other than in the sense that the usa did not only start strong and at first help many it then 180’d its beliefs regardless of its people and then started to destroy itself…. you i feel more speak of the government controlling powers and those who blindly follow it. just in my humber opinoin…
also i desire no retort comment or reply.
That’s “woman”, not “girl”, unless you were suggesting he take up pedophilia, and it’s not our job to open you guys up. At some point you need to take responsibility for your own emotional lives, just like we have to do. Also learn some social skills.
(I say this as a geekly-inclined sort who has few social skills. But I recognize that as a *problem*.)
Hey, I’m from the UK and I completely and totally dispute…ummm…ooh look at this shiny thing
Hello, who let Rush Limbaugh in?
People keep harping on how evil the USA can behave because the USA apparently needs to be reminded frequently. Because otherwise we catch ourselves up in all sorts of self-aggrandizement over what an amazing and free and liberating nation we are.
Get your nose out of the sci-fi and wake up for five minutes. Preferably longer, but five would be a revolution.
cp30 is gay….but hes so butch….wot do gay androids dream of…gay sheep?
I agree, except I would extend the “Empire” to the Western World. Star Wars is actually a very clever movie, which is why it appeals to so many across the world regardless of their background.
These “rebels” were responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 civilians by bringing down the World Trade Center.
You sir, are a fucking blight on humanity by making such retarded comparisons.
Pretty sure he was referring to the British Empire referring to the original tea party in Boston Harbor as well as those involved in the events leading up to the Boston Massacre as terrorists. In the 1700s.
You know that 3,000 is a tiny fraction of the number of Iraqi civilians dead after the US war in Iraq, right?
Our Empire killed at least a hundred thousand Iraqis. Think we’ve avenged those 3000 yet?
Yes, and the rebels in star wars were responsible for the deaths of over 30,000,000 by bringing down the death star… whats your point?
Children are the greatest asset we have and we need more dreamers and I have to make a point that men like Stefan Molyneux has some things to say as to how we raise them. On the issue of government, listen to Adam Kokesh and Tom Woods. If we are to dream and make the future bright for everyone, it is not government to solve that of which it created the very issues we have but we individually and cooperatively need to be the rebels, the dreamers, the makers of the future. As a religious man I only have so much hope for us all but we need to help one another through voluntary corporation and rid the idea of being dependent upon the violence of the state which is a lot like the Empire in many ways, most are just not awake enough to see it for what it is behind the curtains. Humanity can be and do so much more. We need to be free from the chains of the centralized powers of the elite and rise above if we are to survive into the stars.
I got very bored reading this so I stopped. then felt the need to comment about it thus adding to the problem.
Kinda seems like you missed the point.
This post is about how *not* all works of fantasy and sci-fi are childish.
hay hey HEY! Do not try and tell me that I’m an adult, I won’t take it, I am childish and I watch childish things :-p
I child, therefore I am!
Well articulated, Mr. Pegg. Things got a little pear-shaped there for a minute, didn’t they? Thanks for all your fun and art which I do so enjoy.
Cheers.
Logan
Feminism is lunatic fringe.
“If we just avoid any more female advice, we ought to be able to get here.” ~Han Solo
Thank you for writing this thoughtful response. I couldn’t agree more. I am often criticized for paying too much attention to reality and the real injustices in this world. I am the only person I know who watches EuroNews for actual world news instead of the pablum and distractions broadcast in the US as “News”. The best entertainment is both an escape and challenging. “Smoothing the edges” is not new, nor is writing circular scripts that leave the audience as they started for “broader appeal” (commerce). The extended adolescence phenomenon is disturbingly evident in the US. Market forces feed of it.
I guess my own take is that as refreshingly thoughtful as I find this I think the critique could be extended further. Globalization is an equally important facet as the sort of infantilizing culture. Part of the reason for using existing properties like comic book characters (and sequelizing them to death) is that the global market for films has become much more important. It’s easier to sell films to China and other places with established franchises. That’s a far cry from the ’70s when movies like The French Connection had its success determined purely by domestic US sales, and overseas sales was an afterthought (much less revenue streams like DVD/Blu-Ray, streaming online services, etc. etc.).
I think you’ve hit on an interesting line of thought though. I just think the market forces involved are even more insidious and complex.
Good on you for such a classy response :)
I’ve enjoyed so much of your work, and I love spending hours ruminating over the incredible themes that scifi and fantasy can explore. But I think there is a solid grain of truth in your criticism- that we are a culture obsessed with what is intellectually comfortable. I don’t personally think it is limited to, or even best exemplified by such “childish” pursuits as sci fi and fantasy- in my experience, reality TV is much worse when it comes to blatant “I don’t care about Nepal” type escapism and “important topic” co-option.
Sadly such incredible (INCREDIBLE) films as Mad Max Fury Road are not the standard, they are a breathless exception to the rule of mediocrity and pandering. I’m hugely disappointed when I see movies, like Age of Ultron, that clearly aspire to complicated messaging and challenging ideas but fall short. To top it all off, many of my friends’ response is “I love Marvel movies! It was great!” without any desire to explore a more nuanced critical perspective.
In short, while your original phrasing may have been understandably rough (it was extemporaneous, for goodness sake), I think you were hinting at some very valid criticisms of modern culture. Though the examples run rampant in sci-fi, I do think it’s unfair to limit the criticism to that genre of culture alone- it is a symptom of a much larger shift, as you suggested in this piece.
Cheers!
Well said. I’m glad more people are becoming aware enough to stand up to the regurgitation and simplification of media to market it as a product causing it to be a machine to create impulsive shoppers.
Aye, Aye Sir… Saw that headline and thought, ahh another one that has mistaken him, And didn’t read it… (And would love to be a fly, with the capability to read, on the wall in your office) Good day Sir!
Well said, it would have been a shame for science fiction & fantasy to lose one of its ambassadors.
Whatever the intent or context of the original comments, the discussion you kicked off on i09 is worthy of praise in itself.
You have turned me onto thoughts I had previously considered. Also, you are overly apologetic. Sorry.
“And Now I know how Joan of Arc felt…” Right on, Simon! I noticed, several years ago, that nerd culture or geekdom, or whatever you want to call it, was being used, not simply to celebrate fun, joy, imagination, etc., but to make money. I’ve never been to a con, despite the potential to meet like-minded people and have fun, because it seems to me that I’d be considered–to someone in the organising body, at least–a cash cow. That thought literally takes the joy, fun, imagination, etc. out of the experience for me. I’m glad I no longer have to apologise for continuing to love the stuff from childhood, but I have to agree, at some point, developing a perceived-as-adult hobby or interest is worth pursuing, too.
Solid points made throughout. You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
Any chance of a Spa.. oh never mind. Keep up the good work old chap.
A great summation of the state of scifi as pop culture these days; it makes me sad to have the things I love coopted for the somewhat nefarious purposes of just filling someones coffers while distracting an increasing segment of the population of now-justified perpetual children (not discounting myself, there) from the truly important things going on in the world.
You, Simon, are our favorite contemporary author and thinker whether you believe it or not. :)
Well said. I’ve been thinking of something like this for a while, but couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Simon has hit the nail on the head.
Well, okay, but… cinema in commercial terms was dying on it’s arse when the “difficult” / “adult” movies you cite were topping the box office. And those kind of movies are still being made: Nightcrawler, Driver, Boyhood, Whiplash, and on and on. And I’d take a bet that the audiences for those movies were about as large in 2015 as they were in 1973.
What we have got is a massive blockbuster industry on top of that audience bringing in people who were never going to watch Boyhood… including the dreaded “extra million +” that paramount wanted you to add to Star Trek’s audience for the next movie.
There will always be a hunger for a fantasy that allows people to escape without engaging with their problems. In the forties it was swashbucklers, the fifties Cowboys, in the sixties spies and heists (and arguably, the declining quality of those contributed to cinema crashing, when TV took those genres and doled them out on a weekly basis at home)… today, it’s superheroes. If today’s men children are escaping harsh realities, it’s only what they’ve done for at least the last fifty plus years.
I think the misconception that comes with the “great movies are still made today” argument is that we don’t recognize that there are still great movies, or that there was also trash before this period in time. Both of those things are absolutely true. The difference is that, as great as Boyhood and Whiplash are (and they ARE great), they were made for pennies relative to a lot of the films in, say, the 70s. We’re at a place now where it’s extremely rare to see a film with thematic depth outside of the indie market. Major studios just don’t take risks anymore when dumping hundreds of millions of dollars into known properties is usually more financially rewarding.
I’m not sure where you’re getting the “cinema was dying on its arse” argument from. Star Wars was a massive blockbuster, sure, and changed the landscape of cinema, but movies never stopped being an enormously popular art form. The Godfather was an enormous hit, as were things like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, 3 Days of the Condor, and Jaws (which I’d argue isn’t really a “geek” movie, but some may differ). Going back a little, if you adjust for inflation, even Star Wars can’t compete with the massive amounts of money made by past hits like Gone With the Wind or Birth of a Nation (and this continues through to today’s blockbusters–we always hear about how stuff like The Avengers is crushing the box office records, but if you actually look at movie theater attendance, it’s been on a steady decline).
Even the “geekier” movies of the 60s and 70s had a more adult sensibility than today’s–think of 2001: A Space Odyssey or The Exorcist. Hell, I don’t think anyone’s ever argued that The Planet of the Apes movies are anything but trashy B-level flicks, and they STILL have more challenging things to say than most post-Star Wars SF and fantasy flicks.
Yes, people have always wanted escape in their cinema, but the problem Simon identifies is very real: movies are being forced more and more into a formula to make money rather than to genuinely entertain, let alone to challenge. Sure, Hollywood’s always been about making money, but they used to make money by showing the audience something new, or (even better) by getting them talking. These movies still exist, as you say, but they’re relegated to secondary status below the big, samey, exploding blockbusters where greyish pixels crash into other greyish pixels. This despite the fact that audiences clearly do want more variety–as you may have heard, a movie about a capella singers demolished Mad Max and The Avengers at the box office this past weekend. But Hollywood has a smooth, assembly-line process going for making big action SF movies that reliably grease the wheels with a consistent revenue stream, so they’d rather do that than take even the slightest risk on something different, even when doing so could actually net them *more* money.
Movies aren’t supposed to be about selling us product. They’re not shoes or cars. They’re supposed to surprise us. As much as I love the nerdy SF movies of my youth, I’m also waiting to see something *new*, not just watch Star Wars and Marvel sequels forever. And the current film climate is making that hard.
Just as a footnote, the “dying on it’s arse” idea comes from here: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6693/business/cinema-attendance-in-uk/
Jaws is kind of recognised as the first blockbuster, but the landscape of Hollywood in the late 60’s and early 70’s was very, very odd in that the rise of TV had almost killed popular cinema, and the latest throw of the dice was giving the indie kids (like Coppola & Scorsese) a throw of the dice. Then Spielberg & Lucas got an audience that hadn’t been going to the movies back to the cinema, and we were off to the races.
Hollywood has ALWAYS been about selling product, it’s a huge, huge business that is always looking to maximise profit, and within that framework I think most people are looking to make something worthwhile if possible, but profitable at all costs (witness our esteemed hosts’s notes from Paramount WRT the next Star Trek), but Hollywood isn’t the whole of the film industry.
Movies are not (per se) about selling a product, but they are commercial endeavours, and I’m wary about pronouncements on what they are “supposed” to be about. Sometimes, they’re a comfort, and I think in Pegg’s opinion, that’s the default position for the bigger films now, mostly because big money is afraid of loss.
That’s the received wisdom, anyway. No exec ever lost their job for funding the second sequel to a successful movie. But it does lead to the insanity of industry pundits losing their shit because the second avengers movie took less in the first weekend that the first one (lot’s of “where did Marvel / Disney go wrong in only having the second most succesful opening weekend of all time? Was it the weather?”)
Anyway, I’m sticking to my guns that the golden age harked back to was an anomaly in the history of cinema, and escapism has pretty much been the stock in trade of Hollywood.
I think Mr P could do with watching (or remaking?) this particular old Hollywood chestnut again: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034240/
OK, but…as an audience member, a lover of movies, are you REALLY sitting there going “Golly I hope this movie really optimizes the parent company’s brand and provides significant overseas sales!”? Or are you wanting to be entertained, if not actually enlightened and challenged?
I certainly understand why Hollywood themselves want to make ALL THE MONEY, but what does that benefit us? Why wouldn’t we, the audience, demand better? You can write the 70s golden age off as an “anomaly” but it happened; why wouldn’t we want to get it back? We are, at the end of the day, the people who buy the tickets and pay everyone’s exorbitant salary. Shouldn’t we have some say in the matter?
There’s a weird complacency to the geek mindset, where we’re rooting for our “team”, be it Marvel or DC, Star Wars or Star Trek, Disney or Warner Brothers, and if they’re percieved to be doing well, we’re happy. But these are all massive corporations who are going to keep blowing more money than most of us will ever see in our lifetime on the catering budget for these movies. They don’t need our moral support; what they need is for us to push back a little, to hold them to a higher standard.
You look at what happened with, for instance, Ant-Man, where Edgar Wright (who I’m guessing most of the people reading this trust to make a good movie) gets kicked off a movie HE ORIGINATED because he wanted to make something distinctive instead of an assembly-line blockbuster, and you start to wonder if the Marvel formula isn’t actually preventing good movies from being made, rather than enabling them. Marvel isn’t going anywhere; we could easily let this one, likely-to-be-not-very-good movie flop and it wouldn’t cost us Avengers 3. Yet you’ll still hear from people with no financial stake who seem to be deeply invested in Ant-Man doing well, because they’re rooting for the brand. Why? What does that benefit anyone but Marvel?
The answer is: it’s a mindset that’s been cultivated, carefully, by the big companies. It’s fine to root for filmmakers who you like, but those are PEOPLE. Marvel is a brand. A brand that frequently steps on and minimizes the contributions of the actual humans who make the movies entertaining in the first place. Why would we enable that mindset?
I can understand wanting to go into the theater and be swept away. No one wants to walk through the door as a complete sourpuss and watch a movie with arms crossed. But there’s a happy medium. Not everything has to be EPIC AWESOME and THE BEST MOVIE EVAR (as most blockbusters are hyped until they’ve been in theaters for a week or so, by which point the companies have your money). It’s OK to apply a little bit of critical judgment going in. It’s not going to ruin the movie for you.
Let me put it this way: when you have high standards and don’t embrace every movie that comes along as TEH BEST THING EVAR, you get a MUCH bigger thrill when something which actually lives up to the hype comes along. It’s weirdly liberating to be able to admit, walking out of the theater, that Age of Ultron is a puddle of weak tea and not an epochal shift in cinema, even if it means that your geek pals will throw rotten eggs at you (and then agree with you 6 months later). We’re all too addicted to the hype; I say, it’s time to push back a little.
Couple of interesting points you make Pete. What we’re talking about though isn’t blockbusters but that too many have their aims driven by spectacle with little content. You mention Jaws and Star Wars but both of those are more than simple blockbusters. The former offers society commentary wraped around a thrilling narrative and great characters. The latter, the hero’s journey via human culture i.e. cinematic, literature, religion.
On the Sullivan’s Travels thing, please no. I couldn’t bear to see its beauty destroyed. Remakes should only be films that can be improved, like Mad Max.
North American theatrical attendance has been flatlined at a billion for the past 25 years. That’s “billion.” As in, all the people who blather on the Internet about how they never go to the cinema anymore because high prices and kids and expensive popcorn and loud sound and they have a flatscreen at home with 1/4 the resolution of the worst digital projector, are actually going an average of THREE TIMES A YEAR. While this is not an increase, it is also not “steadily declining.”
I refuse to read the rest of your argument if you’re going to lie in the first paragraph.
“Flatlined” is a weird word to use when it’s fluctuated wildly over the years. We know that last year was a particular low point (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-2014-moviegoing-hits-760766) and the general trend is downwards (here’s an article from 2011 that claims the attendance was steadily downwards for 4 years at that point: http://www.techspot.com/news/45401-3d-films-boost-box-office-revenue-despite-drop-in-attendance.html) Note that the REVENUES don’t go down because theatres keep raising ticket prices, and using gimmicks like 3D.
It does appear that the early 90s saw a pretty low point in film attendance, though. And that was largely because there were fewer 13-25-year-olds at that particular demographic instant…and that’s the market Hollywood targets more than any other since the blockbuster era dawned. Which is sort of my point. Hollywood’s main audience is teenagers now. That wasn’t necessarily the case in the 70s.
Completely agree with you Pete. I think Pegg is way off the mark on this, I recently looked at what films were popular over the last 100 years and overwhelmingly they are comedy, action, and family films.
I think the only major change is that most of us that do enjoy complex and mature subject matter consume it differently than we used to. We are no longer beholden to the Theaters to show this content we can find it on Netflix, HBO, Hulu, on Cable. I’d put the best TV of he last 2 decades against some of the best dramas ever made. The Wire stands as a towering achievement of drama and can hold its own against anything the 70’s produced. Mad Men is just as experimental and difficult as any dozen films made in the last 50 years. I can and do watch the Criterion films when they are offerred on any streaming service. I will be checking out Blue Is the Warmest color in the convenience of my own home. If we were to go back a mere 20 years its likely I wouldn’t have even heard of Blue is the Warmest color let alone have easy access to it.
I really think so many people are readily eating this up without even considering if what he is saying is even the case.
“Culture” and “Cinema” are not synonymous. With the advent of decent displays in the home, there’s simply no reason to watch most dramas on the silver screen. movies have been relegates back to spectacles, and good content goes straight to TV.
1. Your analysis clearly excludes “The Godfather.”
2. Thirty years ago, you’d have had access to “Blue is the Warmest Color.” Twenty years ago, you wouldn’t, because Blockbuster, who wouldn’t have carried it, had driven mom-and-pop video stores out of business, and multiplexes stopped showing art films, because of people lke you who’d rather “wait for the DVD” and actually say things like “Mad Men is just as experimental and difficult as any dozen films.”
Intentionally or not, this is a really great piece of film criticism. As often as people complain about the current state of cinema and its reliance on reboots and adaptations of childhood properties, they rarely ask why this is happening or examine why this strategy, for the most part, has been effective. The hypothesis that sociological changes since the 70s have led to prolonged interest in adolescence, and that studios are monetizing that, is difficult to refute.
I also like that you acknowledged that, while spectacle is driving most studio-funded modern films, greatness can absolutely seep through the cracks. It just seems that there is less of a financial reason for studios to fund more high-minded, mid-budget films (like The Godfather, for instance) when they can throw absurd amounts of money into recognizable childhood franchises and consistently reap the rewards. I would love to see somebody work out a way to make that financially viable again, but I sure as hell don’t know how to do it.
I think the most amusing response to the comments I saw today was on twitter ‘so Simon Pegg thinks sci fi is childish, well personally I think he a poo poo wee wee head’
can’t argue with that logic i guess!
Myself I am looking forward to seeing Mad Max and Ex machina and certainly awaiting TFA with eager and yet grown up anticipation, so Ner ner ne ner ner :-)
P.S. does anyone know how i subscribe to this blog, is it possible? so i dont miss a post. . . .
I feel Simon falls prey to the false notion that the 1970s were a great intellectual era for movies when people were flocking to Planet of the Apes sequels, Roger Moore movies and disaster epics with ensemble casts, and we continue to see a mixture of dumb action movies, great blockbuster movies (like the current Apes), great arthouse movies and mediocre ones too.
Also, I disagree “Bruce Wayne’s fascistic vigilantism was never really held to account,” as Nolan’s notion of a happy ending for Batman was for him to kill off his toxic persona. “Did he [Nolan] have an abiding love of Batman or was it a means of making his kind of movie on the mainstream stage?” Yes, I recall Nolan mentioned in an interview he loved the Adam West incarnation as a boy.
This is a great point. You can look back at the early 70’s and remember great films. But for every “Godfather” or “Taxi Driver” there was a “Towering Inferno” or “Smokey and the Bandit”.
You can go back through the history of Hollywood, and it’s never changed. There has always been spectacle designed solely for light entertainment, whether it’s the Fred and Ginger movies, the endless parade of John Wayne westerns, screwball comedies whose plot is no more sophisticated than the average episode of “Three’s Company”, or today’s CGI-driven sci-fi blockbusters.
The 70s WERE a more intellectual era for movies, or at least a more original one. Yes, there was lowest-common-denominator junk, there always is. But consider how many stone-cold classics came out of that era, including the movies that became the templates for today’s blockbusters. As a few people have pointed out, you couldn’t actually make Star Wars on a large budget today, if at all: it’s too weird, too childishly innocent, has too much world-building. Even a lot of the trashier flicks of that era had more thought, or more heart, put into them than the soulless assembly-line blockbusters we get.
There’s also the crucial fact that stuff like the Planet of the Apes movies, or Romero’s Living Dead movies (both of which are frankly smarter and more heartfelt than any blockbuster movie of the last decade, by the way) were considered solidly B-grade. No one confused that stuff with the A-list movies with big stars and high production values, like the Godfather movies or 2001: A Space Odyssey. If you’d asked Hollywood types at that time, they would have told you that the latter type of movie was where their focus lay–that that was the kind of movie Hollywood made. Nowadays the trashy B-list movies are the top priority, and the intelligent, adult movies are the second tier.
I’m glad you wrote that. I thought Shaun of the Dead and The World’s End, too.
This reminded me of some of the things you spoke about in the Marc Maron interview; you’re interesting on this stuff, I wish you’d write more about it.
With regard to Nolan’s treatment of Bruce Wayne, there was an exploration of sorts in TDK, wasn’t there?
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You didn’t have to apologise, you were right the first time. A lot of people will only listen to someone as long as what they’re saying is complimentary. To deny that a large section of Sci-fi fans (myself included) aren’t more infantile that the general population is a gargantuan exercise in self delusion. Most of the genre is based around nostalgia and you can’t really grow if you’re always looking back. Surely it stands to reason that if you idolise childhood you’re going to attempt to recreate it as much as possible including your behaviour. I still thoroughly enjoy Science fiction in many forms, but I try to focus on the questions posed by or the visual beauty of a futuristic world and less on the comfort and familiarity of regurgitated characters/stories from my childhood.
Sci-fi fans are more infantile than the general population?
More so than soap opera fans? Rabid sports fans? Celebrity-worshippers who time their lives by the schedule of the latest Karsashians reality show?
Really?
+1
While I abhor all things Kardashian and firmly believe soaps attract only the over dramatic (which is apparently surprising for a woman) these types of fans can separate themselves more easily than we sci-fi fans and it’s that separation that allows for growth. I think most of us have a thread of “nerdery” running through our childhood/teenage experiences, it isn’t just something i picked up age 20. Speaking from personal experience, at times of stress when I turn to comic books/gaming and the like I find it difficult to determine how much of me is enjoying it for what it is or whether I’m most comforted by the escapism of regression, nostalgia and the desire for “simpler times”. This idolisation of childhood is something specific to “nerd genres” sci-fi, fantasy, adventure (with the notable exception being disney fans). When we participate or are engrossed in something in this “nerd genre” I think at least a small part of us reverts to a “child-like” place. So considering “nerdom” is more that what films we watch (it’s practically a subculture) and therefore affects our lives on a grander scale this far reaching influence allows for these regressions to occur more frequently. This is something i don’t think other types of fans experience regularly. This idealisation and idolisation of “child-like” qualities affects the way we navigate the world, the choices we make and our behaviour. If we can agree that these “child-like” qualities can have positives we also have to acknowledge the negatives, one of which is “peter pan” syndrome and another being avoidance of situations, subject matter and activities that are beneficial but might also be boring, unpleasant or difficult. So yes, I think sci-fi fans are more infantile/childish/child-like than the general population. Bear in mind that i have no scientific evidence to prove my hypothesis.
The thing is, it’s not just “geeks”–that’s actually the problem. A large swathe of the population are going to see these dumb superhero movies aimed at teenagers and being convinced that it’s suitable entertainment for adults. Which sounds really snobby, I guess, but it would be fine if it was just a small, nerdy segment of the population, as it has been for most of the existence of superheroes. When society at large is expending all its mental energy obsessing about these silly comic book movies, there IS a resultant dumbing-down of culture.
I’m as geeky as the next person, for the record. But it really is for the best that geeks be a minority. We’re supposed to be the weirdos, the outcasts. We’re not up to running a civilization, dammit. For that you need actual adults, and as has been pointed out, a big part of geekdom is refusing to grow up.
Seriously, if you’re over 40, could you imagine your parents when they were 40 obsessing over a comic book movie?
I’m 40. My adoptive aunt got me into Star Trek TOS and took me to see E.T. when it came out. She cried right along with me. She’s still a big Trek and Star Wars fan and she’s in her late 70’s. I draw cartoons (even make some money doing it) and love being a member of both the furry and brony communities. I’m also a geek and proud. My parents think fursuits are cool and geek out right along with me. I come from a long line of nerds.
:)
“Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
― C.S. Lewis
No, but my father in law obsesses over Westerns and War Movies, with just as much depth as the current crop of men in capes. My parents generation had their crop of Bond fanatics, etc. Our “infantilisation” is a red herring.
There are, I suppose, vapid westerns and war movies, but those genres were invented for adults; superheroes were explicitly meant to be for kids from their inception. And there aren’t really any all-time classic superhero movies among the current crop. Sorry, there aren’t. There are some fun ones. But there’s no superhero equivalent of The Magnificent Seven or The Searchers or Stagecoach or A Fistful of Dollars or The Wild Bunch or…
Those are smart, exquisitely-crafted films that work on multiple levels and speak to real human experiences, even when they portray times long ago and heightened action. Even when you’re simply enjoying them on a shoot ’em up level their writers and directors were burying all kinds of meaning, personal and political, for smart viewers and students of film. High Noon is about the anti-communist witch-hunts that swept Hollywood and the filmmakers’ experiences with it; Rio Bravo is a response to that film. The Searchers looks at America’s attitudes towards race and its’ “heroes”‘ white supremacist attitudes at a time when that was an unthinkable subject. The Wild Bunch was a transgressive exploration of violence.
The modern superhero and Marvel movies rarely come close to this level of thoughtfulness, and when they do (as with Winter Soldier, the best Marvel movie) they tend to announce that THIS IS A THOUGHTFUL MOVIE ABOUT POLITICS DAMMIT, which announces a certain…insecurity, don’t you think? It’s easy to drape your story in Important Themes for easy cachet; it’s another to have anything to say about them.
I think both. I am a rather mature person, living within my means and value being responsible but I am a dreamer, a nerd, die hard geek. We can find a balance to be dreamers and makers in the world. The imaginations and thinkers are what makes for a working world. Have an brilliant idea and build it. Look at Nikola Tesla, we need more of him. There are men out there like that if not being held back of the cronies and elites of the world.
I really appreciate this post and the questions that it raises about the role that nerd culture should play in our grownup lives.
Like you, I don’t believe that passion and imagination and worlds beyond our everyday reality belong only to childhood and adolescence. At the same time, it’s hard to deny that those things have been used to disengage from rather than grapple with the issues facing the world today.
Is it out of some desire to preserve the “purity” of a child’s worldview? I don’t know. The answer may not even be particularly important. What I believe is important is how we use our passion and imagination for worlds beyond the ordinary from here on out.
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You’re entirely correct. I just don’t want them to change Star Trek, or rather, what Star Trek is supposed to be. Sure, they’re going to attempt to make it more accessible for mainstream audiences (aka people that think Star Trek is boring). The thing is, why does that mean they have to make it dumber? Are we ever going to see another Star Trek television series? I don’t want the hard science-fiction side of Star Trek to go away. I love the rebooted Trek, but I also love the old Trek. It really sort of scares me. Is the fact that they are remastered “Star Trek: The Next Generation” on Blu-Ray a sign that they want to put the old Star Trek to rest, or a sign that they’re trying to keep it alive and relevant? I question their motives…while I’m trying to collect them all.
As always in these interesting social overviews, one comes back to “who is ‘they’?” Who is infantalizing us? We have met the enemy and he is us.
“Infantilization” is where someone is reliant on others to make their choices for them and serve their needs. Changing the script of what is an “adult” is not infantilization, it’s expanding that script to allow greater freedom to make their own choices about what being an adult means. That could range from the traditional script of job-marriage-kids to one where you install a ball pit in your spare bedroom and watch Star Wars while playing in it. It’s a mistake to view people expressing a different script for adulthood as not being an adult at all. (And anyway, the challenges of modern Developed-World-Adulthood are more about economic forces than about Star Wars.)
Thank you for clarifying your comments; this is appreciated. I do think you have interesting points, but let’s not forget that a LOT of good, thought-provoking, original cinema is being produced overall. Blockbusters…are blockbusters. Not all action hero films and sci-fi are deep works of fiction, but some are. Alongside these, plenty of “serious” films are being made, alongside the dreck and the eternal parade of remakes. You are certainly powerful enough to produce and star in them yourself.
But let’s not lay this at the feet of 70’s and 80’s kids and our unwillingness to “grow up.” I am a grownup. I was in the military to pay my college loans at 19 and I now have a two-decade spousal relationship, a mortgage and a parent with Alzheimer’s to care for. I like thought-provoking films, but I also like escapism. And you can pry my Iron Man action figure out of my cold, dead, mature, tax-paying adult hands.
Exactly. I get my daily dose of reality and try every day to make this messy, complicated world a little better. Also, I suffer from depression and anxiety. I stay connected to the real world, but I need a happy place to go to so that grim reality doesn’t overwhelm me. SF and fantasy gives me that safety valve.
I also think that this is a really interesting idea. It contrasts nicely with the 1920’s phenomenon when a generation lost their childhoods so they fetishised children and innocence.
It’s the inverse. Cinema has dumbed down sci-fi, to the point that Michael Bay is allowed to make half a dozen Transformers films built on nothing but explosions, Star Wars was downgraded to two-hour lightsaber exhibitions, Star Trek was downgraded to Star Wars, and superhero movies have become CGI loveletters that are more about “Let’s have you and you fight each other” than they are about drama. We need more classic sci-fi storytellers, like in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even the 80s. We need to make it more about the search for truth, like it used to be, instead of the search for destruction. There are great writers and directors out there trying to do just that. Don’t abandon the sinking ship, Simon; help steer it off the rocks.
Thank goodness. For a moment I thought our dear Mr. Pegg had been abducted by sour-pussed social activists. Now I know he simply made the mistake of expressing himself in anything more than three sentences and with no polysyllabic words. Anything more than three sentences is sure to be misquoted.
Hey Simon! I have to admit it worried me to see you on the Trending Topics and not for a good reason. All those comments on one of my favourite actors were hard to read, but hey, I’m also a big fan of your good friend Martin Freeman, so I know what it is to have your idol say something that people take the wrong way and see all hell breaking loose. Internet is a dumb place, you can’t say anything these days without having everyone on you right away (and not getting sarcasm, which is another issue that still baffles me). Anyway, of course some of the people who made negative comments read this all as you quitting being a huge nerd, which is a scary concept! The way I see it, being a nerd is not always about not growing up, but liking something with a passion and being proud about it. I’m sometimes the weird type of nerd, who might cry over a good action sequence or something, but I definitely appreciate a good plot and a good message behind what I see. I will always remember walking out of the cinema after watching “The Imitation Game” with a knot in my throat. That doesn’t usually happen, and it should, more often. Of course, God forbid we only see dramas in cinema, but hopefully my point is clear. I would have to agree with you on how film industry is delivering lower and lower human-quality products but I wouldn’t exclusively point at fantasy, sci-fi and overall nerdy things. People who’s not into these tend to think of them as kids stuff, and why should that mean they don’t deliver a message anyway? I personally see this problem in american comedy films like the ones Seth Rogen, Jonah Hill or Adam Sandler would star in. Someone would argue those films generally have a message behind them but those are exactly the films that came to mind when I read the headlines on what you said, poor tasteless and brainless comedy which should go straight to DVD but instead are often box office hits. I just don’t get it. THAT’S where I see dumb cinema.
Okay, rant over! Thanks for taking the time to write all this and overall thanks for what you do, your films make me smile and laugh and cry and ALWAYS deliver a message (as opposed to what some people are commenting). Good luck with your upcoming projects and don’t be afraid to make a good trekkie film for trekkies, Simon! The key here is to make Star Trek what it originally was, as you said. Of course some of us want good ship battles but “human” values are just as important in this universe. When I think of Star Trek I don’t think of a blockbuster type thing! Have a good day and keep rocking! Love from Argentina.
I actually agree with what you said to begin with, though. I miss original stories and actual adult oriented cinema. For every “Gone Girl” and “Nightcrawler”, we get seemingly 5 to 10 Avengers.
I’m not saying I don’t like comic books or sci fi, but sometimes you really need something more than big action set pieces that all challenge each other to be bigger and more explosive with each successive release.
Movies aren’t about inspiring people or telling a meaningful tale anymore. They’re made solely for the purpose of making more money than whatever the last release made.
Age of Ultron might have been the last time I see a Marvel movie. Something about being almost 29 and seeing a flying purple robot lifting a magic hammer makes you wonder what else you could have done with those three hours. Oddly enough, I never felt like that the previous weekend when my wife and I watched the entirety of Daredevil on Netflix.
Anyway, I’m rambling on. Just wanted to say, I’m a huge fan and I hope to see you in some more serious roles in the future. Hot Fuzz is still one of my favorite movies of all time, though.
Good luck in everything you do, The Artist Formerly Known as Tim Bisley.
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You really are quite brilliant. Plus, you held twine for me. I will always have your back. Keep being provocative and making me think.
Beautifully written! I love that Simon actually responds to irresponsible journalism. It’s hard to believe anyone could actually second guess his nerd status, level: expert. People, including actors, are not 1D.
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Honestly, I don’t think you own anyone an explanation. However, I enjoyed this post and I absolutely love watching you act. Spaced was awesome!
Sorry, I meant “owe” not “own”.
The problem with trying to have this type of in-depth look at the ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ culture, society, and the film industry (an extension of our culture and society) changed over time in an interview is that someone has to find a meaty bit the can share in 140 characters. They are tasked with driving traffic/views/likes/retweets to their own ‘work’ which is often just finding whatever might trend or get people riled up. It’s a symptom of what you’re discussing here, and one I know I’ve been a part of at times. I mean I write and use social media for a living, so yeah. I’m part of the problem, too.
I’m glad you shared your thoughts, because it’s just not something that can be said in 140 characters without context. Context is often missing in these conversations and in commentary about a few words someone said.
I agree with you that it’s a conversation worth having. The machine of the mainstream, our consumption of it, and our love of certain ‘childish’ things are certainly worth considering. I am a kid that was born/raised in ’70s/’80s. In some ways I have never grown up, and in some ways I feel like I was always an adult. Honestly? Being a grown up is hard sometimes. Sometimes escaping into something fun is well…fun. I appreciate thinking pieces, too. The best is when all the good stuff can come together in one piece. Part funny, part action, and part thoughtful. When you combine those things you get the best pieces of art-whether they’re on film or not.
Raising the next generations of nerds I’m actually a little jealous that they have access to so much content, so much art, so much commentary, and are often accepted as who they are. So while we 30-40 somethings may be holding onto our youth a bit, our kids get the benefit of that growing up in a time when it’s okay to be nerdy or geeky. Everyone is a little nerdy or geeky. It’s cool.
Maybe that’s the real benefit here? That people all over the world now have a way to enjoy some of our perennial favorites even if they are a little smoothed over/dumbed down it will still draw them to the original works. It will still help them think. More importantly it will bring about a new era of creators and hopefully a more diverse view of what success looks like.
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You are absolutely right, and while I suspect the next Star Trek is going to end up the same as the last (that is a wonderful action movie that is not really Trek), I’m glad you at least recognize and sympathize with the concern that many fans have.
Hopefully you can steer the ship more in the direction of its legacy. TNG posed some serious questions without drama or preconceptions, in a setting with believable and grounded characters.
Rick Berman trek was the first thing in a long time that recaptured the urgency and commentary you spoke of.
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I am often accused of never growing up – but in a good natured fashion! That said, the more ‘grown-up’ of my peers seem to be the ones most pliant to authority, never questioning their principles, the government, their religion, etc. Hell, they’re all listening to music from the 70s, as rigid in their musical tastes as in everything else.
I think the great qualities of youth are wanting to know about the world, to discover new worlds, new things, new ideas. I think SF can be great at nurturing these positive aspects of humanity in general. So what if I can’t find space for one more longbox in my crowded basement ;-).
The bigger sci-fi and fantasy seem to get in the context of the “mainstream phenomenon” you describe, the more I hope the independents begin to take back the genres. I don’t buy a lot of films anymore; as I’ve aged I can’t seem to rationalize collecting more stuff to extend my life (uh, I mean my childhood). But here’s what I find on my shelf these days: Shane Carruth’s “Primer” and “Upstream Color”. Richard Linklater’s “A Scanner Darkly.” John Hyams’ “Universal Soldier: Day of Reckoning” (which has a great Phil Dick-ian structure). Pete Travis’ (and Alex Garland’s) “Dredd” (two copies, in fact, one on DVD, the other BluRay). And perhaps not surprisingly, the Three Flavors Cornetto trilogy on BluRay. The only film I’ve seen in the theatre in 2015 so far has been “Mad Max: Fury Road.” Not sure what will be next, but I suspect it might be “Star Wars: The Force Awakens,” and part of me is troubled by that. You’ve tapped into something with this piece of writing, however. I think it warrants a lot more discussion!
Yaaaaaarp!
Distraction and evasion, that’s what all seems to be.
Have followed almost all your work and loved it, clearly you know how the game is going.
Waiting for your next move.
Wtf is Simon Pegg? Never heard of him.
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To look uncritically at the things we love is to do them disservice. Both your initial radio interview and the above article provide good fodder for discussions that fans of these genres SHOULD be having. I too share concerns that spectacle overtakes substance and I hope fans can come together to respectfully discuss this stuff.
Star Trek OST? I think we can agree that diehard Star Trek TOS fans had never any issues with the soundtracks of the new movies. Looking forward to Star Trek Yondbe.
Glad to hear your side of it. Far too easy to be swayed by tabloid sensationalism when it concerns something you care about. :(
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“Simon Pegg has written a thoughtful response…”
Thoughtful indeed. Keep up the good work.
Oh, Simon! Your fans know what you meant. Having said that, I’m happy you cleared everything up. I agree with you about today’s films…too many of them have lost the art of film and have become lost in the cgi and shock value to entertain the masses. I enjoy the films that say something- that make you think. The films that make you laugh with simplicity. I adore all of your films, Simon. Even the ones that include a bit of cgi. Not to say cgi is the thing that differentiates everything. Look at my favorite film, PAUL- we wouldn’t have Paul without technology. Maybe I’m not making a fantastic point, eloquently written like you wrote- but I’m saying that you are correct, and who says it better than you?